Stephen Meurice: Think back to the last time you talked about money with a loved one. Maybe a spouse, a partner or even a roommate or a friend. I’m sure it was a completely rational, levelheaded conversation. Right? Probably not.
Adam Palanica: One of the big main themes we found was that having arguments around money is kind of a universal thing.
SM: That’s Dr. Adam Palanica. He’s a behavioural scientist.
AP: Talking about money is kind of a taboo subject, right? It's like a stigma. There's a hush hush. You don’t really ask how much people make, you don’t really ask how much things cost. And so, our question was, ‘Well, why does that happen?’
SM: The answer to that question is the impetus for a new project called Money Style by Scotia Advice+. It’s all about how emotions tie into our relationship with money. And finding a common language to talk about finances without all that extra baggage. There are six money styles that correspond to different ways people perceive what money should do for them. Think love languages, but for money.
Tanya Eisener: Yeah, so we tend to go right to the financial planning piece without digesting beforehand how it is that we feel about money. So, we're not tapping into that empathetic side first and really understanding what's the root of it.
SM: That’s Tanya Eisener, the Senior Vice President of Retail Customer Value at Scotiabank. She and Adam, who’s the Senior Manager of Global HR Insights and People Analytics, are our guests this episode. They’ll talk to Dewlyn D'Mellow from the Perspectives team about what exactly a money style is, how it can help us better understand the emotions around finances. And maybe even help remove a little tension from your next chat about money.
I’m Stephen Meurice and this is Perspectives. Now, here’s Dewlyn D'Mellow.
Dewlyn D'Mellow: Tanya, Adam, thanks so much for joining us today.
AP: Thank you so much.
TE: Thank you.
DD: Let's get right into it. What is a money style, Tanya?
TE: So, the Money Style project is really, we've developed a Money Style quiz by Scotia Advice+. It's a short quiz of 15 questions, and it's intended really to help people better understand how are they reacting to money from an emotional intelligence standpoint and really to help them inform and have better conversations. So that we take away the stigma, some of the fear that comes when people think about money.
DD: Alright. Adam, let's bring you into the conversation here. I understand you're a behavioural scientist, so how does behavioral science inform a tool or quiz like this?
AP: The project itself kind of stemmed from the anecdotal situation of all of us having this kind of universal negative response around money. We have a lot of negative emotions and kind of argue with loved ones about it. And so, our question was, ‘Well, why does that happen?’ So, we looked into the scientific literature and we looked at dozens of different research articles going way back to the 1970s. And we also had deep dive conversations with a whole bunch of financial experts, psychologists, couples therapists to really understand the psychology behind financial decision making. One of the big main themes that we found with this project in general was that having arguments around money is kind of a universal thing, right? So, we have a lot of negative emotions. And when you deep dive into that, there's a couple of reasons for that. So, one is there's a social norm in Canada and in much of North America for that matter, that talking about money is kind of a taboo subject, right? It's like a stigma. There's a hush hush. You don't really ask how much people make. You don't really ask how much things cost and you don't really talk about it at the dinner table. So that's one aspect. The other aspect from an individual perspective is that all of us have unique childhood experiences and we all have hopes and wants and dreams and fears and anxieties. And it's easy for us to compare upwards as opposed to downwards. And what I mean by that is when we see the rich and famous, it's easy for us to compare ourselves to them thinking, ‘We're embarrassed, like we're not making as much as them.’ So that, again, it's stigmatized to even talk about. Especially when you watch reality TV, it's easy to compare yourself. And it's funny because that's actually not even a unique trait to humans. There's research showing that even monkeys will actually forgo food and water to watch elite, higher-ranking monkeys in the animal kingdom. And so it's not just humans, so there's kind of a genetic link there, which is really funny. So anyway, there's a whole bunch of issues in terms of like why there's negative emotions talking about money. And really the whole point of this Money Style quiz is really to elicit a self-awareness. It's knowledge about yourself, it's knowledge about others, knowing that everybody has a unique experience and unique wants and needs, and there are no right or wrong answers. It's really to elicit empathy.
DD: Empathy. Okay. So Tanya, this is really all about trying to get to the root of how we talk about money and what those feelings are that are behind it.
TE: Yeah, so we tend to go right to the financial planning piece without digesting before hand how it is that we feel about money. So, we're not tapping into that empathetic side first and really understanding what's the root of it. People perceive things differently, they feel differently, they have different backgrounds, different pasts, and that all comes into play when you take the money style quiz and really understand what's driving those behaviours. It helps to remove some of the stress, some of the stigma that can exist, not for everybody, but it can exist. And really to help supplement those financial conversations.
DD: Okay, so money conversations are difficult. It was often taboo to even talk about it. So how does the quiz help with that?
TE: So the quiz, first and foremost, is self-awareness. So really understanding your own money style is the first part, and many people may think that they know their money style, but this really helps to uncover that. And then secondly, others that you have, either your spouse or your partner or a family member, their money style may be the same, it may be different. And so really getting that understanding as well. How are you differing your views? And that really helps to form the conversation and lead the conversation with empathy.
AP: I also just want to touch on what you said and again, it's so brilliant and it's so simple. So, the fact that we anecdotally have these perceptions about what we want money to do for us, but having them explicitly on paper with a series of questions and nuanced answers really highlights the individual differences that we have. And again, it seems like, it seems anecdotal or colloquial, like, ‘Okay, I treat my money like this in this situation, and that's about it.’ That's about how far we think about it on a regular basis. But having these very clear, explicit questions really helps to uncover that self-awareness. I think that's super important.
DD: Tanya, from your research, what kind of stress do you think money causes people and why was this necessary?
TE: Yeah, well, if you just look at our macroeconomic environment right now, there is a lot of stress there from an affordability perspective. So, in particular, 82% of Canadians are reducing their non-essential spending just to meet their needs. 65% of Canadians are putting less money aside and saving in their RRSPs and TFSAs, for instance. And 28% of Canadians are taking on side jobs or taking on additional work. Again, just to meet that affordability piece as well. So, our driving insight really about money conflict is so much more than about money. It's really about the issues that are stemming with money. And that's how we wanted to get to the behavioural piece of this and the emotional side of it as well, because there are lots of stresses out there and everybody is reacting differently. Everybody consumes the information differently. And that's really what we found out of our research and what drove this.
AP: I’ll kind of tack on to that. One little fun fact that I found interesting is that from a statistical basis, one of the number one reasons why people get married is actually for financial security. And from a statistical perspective, one of the number one reasons why people get divorced is from financial stress. So, money is one of the leading causes of marriage, and it's also one of the leading causes of divorce. And so that just highlights how important this quiz can be –
DD: Wow.
AP: – because it is such a fundamental issue.
DD: Okay well let’s get into the six actual money styles – can you break them down for me?
AP: Okay, so the six different money styles are: belonging, certainty, connection, contribution, independence and potential. So, let's just go through each one of them. So, for belonging, it's the notion that money is a means for you to feel included. For certainty, it's the notion that when it comes to money, you need to feel secure. For connection, money allows you to show the people you care about what it means for them. For contribution, money enables you to build toward meaningful goals. For independence when it comes to money, you need to feel free or independent, so to speak. And for potential, the purpose of money is to help you live your best life. And we really kind of nailed down these because these were the common themes or the trends that were coming up across the different clients and the different research that we were conducting. And it gives us enough nuance, these six different styles, give us enough nuance to really differentiate between different types of people, so to speak, without being overly complex or overly complicated. And again, the whole purpose here is that there are no right or wrong answers. It's what money does for you individually. And so, the whole purpose is to really elicit, again, the empathy for when speaking to loved ones, or anybody for that matter, that you have that self-awareness and that understanding that, ‘Yeah, not everyone's going to think like me and everybody's unique.’
TE: Yeah, so I took the quiz three times because I wanted to reaffirm, ‘Is it just how I'm feeling right now? Is there something happening today that I might answer the questions differently?’ And I did feel like I answered the questions differently, but it came up with the same money style interest each time.
DD: Interesting.
TE: So, for me, my money style is potential. I had my husband do the quiz and his with certainty. And so, for me, potential really aligns more with, you know, ‘You only live once.’ And my husband likes the certainty, and so what I found out anyway through the quiz, likes the certainty. And so, it's not that we even necessarily argue about money, but we clearly have different views and how we're perceiving money. And now we can better align that and better understand each other without really having to unpack it. But using the quiz to help unpack those conversations.
AP: Yeah, like it seems trivial, but really this quiz or this project in general is the first of its kind to really elicit these conversations about finances and money with loved ones. And it's ironic because again, we looked through five decades of scientific literature, and this was the first kind of tool to be used in real time for real people to really have that empathetic conversation with loved ones about finances and money.
DD: Alright. So, I did this 15-question quiz – which by the way people can find at Scotiabank.com/moneystyle – it was interesting, it was fun, it was insightful. I got ‘certainty’ with, I think, little bits of connection. So what do you think that says about me?
AP: Right. And it's actually even before that, it's important to understand that. Yes, we do call it you know, money style. And there are different dimensions that you can have with this. But it is important to know that these aren't necessarily concrete. Okay. So, you could be exactly what you just said, you could be a little bit of this and a little bit of that depending on the circumstances and the environment. So, we want to consider these kind of like a scale or each one of these is like a dimension. And by no means we're not making any clinical diagnosis on people. So that's another important thing, right? This is all to elicit that empathy. And again, talk to a financial advisor for kind of future financial decision making. That's really important. But based on that, most people have a prominent style here, right? So exactly what you said. So, connection and certainty. So, connection is something that typically the notion that you want to spend money on your loved ones and make connections with others. Certainty is along the lines of independence, which is basically, you want financial security, so to speak, right? You want to be able to pay your bills and put food on the table without having that anxiety or worry about it.
DD: Okay. So someone takes a test. Maybe there are some empathetic, productive conversations. What's the next step for people to get a handle on things?
TE: So, the first piece is understanding your style and so getting a better feel for what your style is. And one thing I will say is that we are not collecting the data. We are not storing the data. This is completely for you to do on your own to help inform you, and then you can carry that on to prompt a conversation with your financial advisors. So, your financial advisor will have all of the tools from a financial advising perspective. But Money Style by Scotia Advice+ isn't meant to be: “Here's your problem and here's a solution.” It's meant to prompt and elicit that conversation with your financial advisor and supplement that conversation with them as well.
DD: One of the things that I thought was important to note is that it's a low-pressure quiz. You don't have to create a profile. Like you said, it's not data that's stored. You can just go on there and tinker. You can do it a couple of times and it doesn't take very long.
TE: Oh, minutes. It's meant to be simple. It's meant to take the stress out as you're completing the quiz. So, then you can reflect. I find that, after the fact, the thinking that you do as a result of the quiz and the outcome takes more time than to do the actual quiz itself.
DD: Right. And Adam, before I let you go, it's not often we have a behavioural scientist on the show, so I have to ask, what's one thing that people should keep in mind from a behavioural scientist’s standpoint that might help their relationship with money?
AP: So, again, empathy. Everyone's different. Everyone has unique individual wants and needs. The whole point of this quiz is really again, it only takes a few minutes to do yourself, but the whole idea is to elicit some kind of longer-term behaviours to really deeply understand yourself and others. Understand that any time you talk about money, again, it should be talking, not arguing, and that anything that someone else says, it's not a personal attack against you, right. It's just you really want to understand where they're coming from. So, they're not saying that you're right or you're wrong. It's just they have different views than you do. And all of us have unique perspectives. And that's the whole idea. So really, from a behavioural science perspective, we just want to create a calm, like neutral environment, not emotionally loaded in any way, know that we all have individual differences. And really that will foster a greater happiness in your relationship, a greater financial security in terms of making those decision-making processes with finances and money in the future. So, it's creating a better well-being for all of us.
DD: Okay. And Tanya, I'll end with you. What's something you learned from the process of developing this project and from seeing people interact with the tool?
TE: Yeah, so I would say what we learned is how vast feelings are when it relates to money, how differently people think, how they react differently, how they can create stresses, and how widespread those feelings and emotions are. And so that was really a big learning as well for us. Financial impacts are significant contributors to divorce, to arguments, there's a lot of emotion behind it, there's a stigma. And so really learn how money conversations are impacting people from an emotional intelligence standpoint.
DD: Tanya, Adam thanks so much for joining us and for sharing your insights with us.
AP: Thank you so much.
TE: Thank you.
DD: I’ve been speaking with Tanya Eisener, the Senior Vice President of Retail Customer Value at Scotiabank and Adam Palanica, the Senior Manager of Global HR Insights and People Analytics at Scotiabank. And we’ll have a link to Scotiabank’s Money Style Quiz by Advice + in the description for this episode and on the Perspectives page at Scotiabank.com/perspectives. There you’ll also find a transcript for this episode as well as other stories, insights, analysis and thought leadership.
